1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 JEFFERSON TOWNSHIP 8 BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS 9 * * * 10 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 11 * * * 12 DATE OF HEARING: Monday, February 24, 2003 Beginning at 7:28 p.m. 13 PLACE OF HEARING: One Business Parkway Drive 14 Dayton, Ohio 45427 15 BOARD MEMBERS: Mellow Bradley Samuel Dickerson 16 Jasper Cemno 17 ZONING DIRECTOR: Verne Fortson 18 * * * 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 1 (Thereupon, the Pledge of Allegiance 2 was recited by everyone in attendance.) 3 MS. BRADLEY: The meeting is called 4 to order. Roll call. Mr. Cemno? 5 MR. CEMNO: Here. 6 MS. BRADLEY: Mr. Dickerson? 7 MR. DICKERSON: Here. 8 MS. BRADLEY: We have a quorum. The 9 purpose of the meeting tonight is Case Number 10 SR-03-003, which is a request for conditional use 11 of property located at 6450 Derby Road. 12 And the meeting is now open for 13 discussion. Is anybody going to speak to this 14 issue? 15 PASTOR LARKINS: What information? 16 MS. BRADLEY: Is there anyone who 17 wishes to speak regarding this issue? 18 PASTOR LARKINS: Is there any 19 information we need to present or something? 20 MS. BRADLEY: I don't know whether 21 you want to present information or not. I'm 22 asking the question. We will have questions 23 we'll obviously ask you in a few minutes, but I 24 want to give you an opportunity to say whatever 25 you want to say before we continue the meeting. 3 1 PASTOR LARKINS: Christine? 2 MS. BRADLEY: You don't have to. 3 I'm just giving you an opportunity to do so. 4 PASTOR LARKINS: I didn't know 5 exactly what to expect of the meeting. 6 MS. FORTSON: You could give us a 7 brief overview of the activity you want to do and 8 the property and what it is that you want to do. 9 PASTOR LARKINS: Okay. Christine, 10 you can present it. 11 MS. HYMAN: This is for Shekinah 12 Ranch, and it's actually a subsidiary of Spirit 13 of Life Christian Embassy. And Shekinah Ranch 14 has actually been in existence for seven years, 15 and we were actually located at 5600 Shank Road. 16 And all we've done is we've moved basically our 17 location to 6450 Derby. 18 We are -- what we've been doing is 19 we've been running a day camp program for youth 20 in and around the city. We have an obstacle 21 challenge course. We have a horse training 22 program, which we are certified to do. We have a 23 basic animal education program. We -- well, we 24 don't board, but we actually have horses that we 25 use for a horsemanship training program. 4 1 And we're just wanting to do exactly 2 the same activities that we applied to do 3 probably about three or four years ago. There's 4 not going to be anything different. We have an 5 archery program, a couple other things. That's 6 it. 7 MS. BRADLEY: Are there any comments 8 from citizens that are present? Would you state 9 your name and address? 10 MS. MCCREARY: My name is Hilary 11 McCreary, 6400 Derby Road, the property adjacent 12 to the property that we're speaking about. 13 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. Excuse me. 14 MS. FORTSON: Anybody else that 15 wants to testify on behalf of or against, stand 16 up so I can officially swear you in. 17 (Thereupon, all witnesses testifying 18 were duly sworn.) 19 MS. FORTSON: Everybody is sworn in. 20 MS. BRADLEY: You may go ahead. 21 MS. MCCREARY: There is reference to 22 a map of which I believe will be showing some of 23 the buildings that are going to be needed to run 24 the facility. I'm concerned with right-of-way, 25 as far as how people are going to reach areas of 5 1 the property that they are speaking about. I'm 2 concerned with how close this is going to be to 3 my own property, which as we've said, is side by 4 side. I am concerned with my liability, as far 5 as young people and a day camp being run next 6 door. I am concerned with the volume of traffic. 7 I was thrown a number of thirty-six 8 horses, which to me, is a fairly large number of 9 horses. I understand that the entire property is 10 thirty-six acres. It's been my understanding, at 11 least for grazing alone, per head, per year, it 12 requires one acre. 13 There is reference to a fishing lake 14 being dug there. I'm concerned with bugs due to 15 that lake. There are many things that I'm 16 concerned with. 17 We did not receive this letter until 18 five days ago, so I really haven't had a good 19 chance to research everything that is being 20 discussed here tonight, and that way I cannot put 21 into writing my feelings as far as pro and con 22 other than concerns. All my neighbors that I 23 know are not here tonight. That may very well be 24 their choosing, but as I said, we didn't receive 25 the letter until five days ago; and being given a 6 1 ten-day time limit for written confirmation 2 whatsoever, I don't feel that we were given that 3 time. 4 We do have a rod and gun club within 5 a quarter of a mile from this proposed area. As 6 everyone knows, Possum Creek is, again, less than 7 two miles from the proposed area. And I think 8 that I, speaking for myself, am concerned with 9 the activities that are going to be going on on 10 this property. 11 It is very quiet right now 12 basically. Derby Road is more of a thoroughfare 13 for the school buses, for the people using the 14 rod and gun club, and that type of thing. What 15 increase in volume of traffic can we expect? I 16 am speaking with a woman affiliated with the 17 church, was told that there would be weekend 18 sleepovers. What's the volume of horse trailers? 19 What's the -- is this -- what is the membership 20 of the church? How large is the church? How big 21 are these activities that we're discussing going 22 to be? 23 And, again, I'm curious as to a map 24 of where buildings are going to be. If a day 25 camp is being run, what is the proposed size of 7 1 youth that are going to be attended to, and 2 things like that. I'm very concerned because 3 this is very close to my house. And there has 4 already been digging and excavation done. I 5 don't see how that could have been done without 6 this hearing tonight. And that concerns me. So 7 I have a lot of concerns, and I would like at 8 least, you know, to address them and see the 9 proposed layout of what's going on. 10 MS. BRADLEY: Did the map go out 11 with the site that we got -- 12 MS. FORTSON: Uh-huh. 13 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. 14 MS. MCCREARY: I'm sorry, I did 15 not -- 16 MS. FORTSON: Not for them. They 17 don't get the maps. It's posted here, in the 18 Township hall, so they can always come up and 19 take a look at it. But you're welcome to take a 20 look at mine. 21 MS. MCCREARY: I'm very concerned. 22 As I said, this is very close to my home. 23 MS. BRADLEY: Are there any other 24 comments from any other citizen? 25 (No verbal response.) 8 1 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. Then do we have 2 any questions or comments? 3 MS. FORTSON: I have one question. 4 5600 Shank Road is no longer your site anymore? 5 MS. HYMAN: We're actually -- we're 6 still there physically until we actually make the 7 move. 8 MS. FORTSON: But once you move over 9 to your new site on Derby Road, 5600 Shank Road 10 will no longer be operational then, you won't be 11 operating the same activity there? 12 MS. HYMAN: No, ma'am. 13 MS. BRADLEY: Any questions? 14 MR. DICKERSON: What are you 15 switching over to, a bigger facility? Is that 16 what your proposal is? 17 MS. HYMAN: Right. It's a bigger 18 property. 19 MR. DICKERSON: How long had you 20 been at the Shank Road location? 21 PASTOR LARKINS: Six years. 22 MR. DICKERSON: In that period of 23 time -- I'm trying to remember how many people 24 are fairly close to that location -- have there 25 been -- are there very many complaints or 9 1 anything of that sort on file that had to have 2 been addressed or maybe still open cases? 3 PASTOR LARKINS: We have no cases 4 open. We've had no insurance liabilities. I 5 mean, there's been complaints from the citizens 6 not understanding, and all that's been cleared 7 up, you know. We have a good relationship with 8 the sheriff's department. In fact, we met with 9 the sheriff's department, Moraine police as of 10 last year. I have letters in my possession 11 saying that, you know, we're all in the 12 standards. 13 We have good relationships with the 14 political structure of our city. In fact, this 15 year, you know, the mayor of our city is doing a 16 benefit banquet for us, to help us raise money to 17 increase resources to help the children in our 18 community. 19 MS. BRADLEY: Vern, did you get any 20 complaints? 21 MS. FORTSON: No, not of recent. 22 Not over the last year and a half or so. 23 Have you secured insurance for this 24 location? 25 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes, we have 10 1 insurance. And we just completed our 2003 2 application to certify the day camp through 3 Columbus. 4 MS. BRADLEY: How many children do 5 you plan on serving in the day camp? 6 PASTOR LARKINS: We normally have 7 about fifty to seventy-five at a time. And that 8 can go down from five groups of five at a time 9 because we don't operate on volume. We operate 10 on the basis of developing life skills and 11 character education in the kids. So we're not 12 really looking for volume, you know, at one time. 13 That's just not what we do. And we like to keep 14 it at a small level so we can have that 15 one-on-one interaction with each kid. 16 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. I too have a 17 question related to their concern, and that is 18 the egress in and out of there, the amount of 19 traffic. Could you speak to that? 20 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes, as you can see 21 on the map, we have designated -- actually, we're 22 extending the driveway area where there's a 23 circle. Nobody's property will be -- will have 24 to be traveled upon. And we have fifty parking 25 spaces that's designated on our property. 11 1 MS. BRADLEY: Yeah, I can see that 2 you actually have a plan and park. I was just 3 concerned about the amount of traffic coming in 4 and out. 5 PASTOR LARKINS: Well, all of our 6 activities there is by reservation only. So it's 7 not something where we put the sign up and 8 anybody comes and goes. These are small groups 9 that we tailor all of our programming to, whether 10 it's the Urban League or whether it's, you know, 11 any of the other organizations that we help 12 achieve their goals with life skills. So it's 13 not a place where -- it's actually more private 14 than public, where people are not just coming and 15 going. 16 MS. BRADLEY: Now, our guidelines 17 state that any animals must be kept at least two 18 hundred feet from the existing line of property. 19 You're aware of that? 20 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. And all of 21 the -- all of our property line will be fenced 22 in, so, therefore, they don't have to be 23 concerned about, you know, animals, you know, 24 just having free access to, you know, roam around 25 on their properties and so forth. 12 1 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. Hold on just a 2 minute. What is the time line, time frame for 3 the day camp? 4 PASTOR LARKINS: It's from 8:00 till 5 4:00 in the afternoon. 6 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. 7 MS. FORTSON: Monday through Friday 8 or is it seven days? 9 PASTOR LARKINS: No, Monday through 10 Friday. 11 MR. CEMNO: Closed on weekends? 12 PASTOR LARKINS: No, we do private 13 groups on weekends and horsemanship training on 14 Saturdays. We don't have any activities on 15 Sundays. We consider -- sometimes we have church 16 activities there, you know, from our church, but 17 mainly with the day camps and so forth, they're 18 five days a week. 19 MS. BRADLEY: Yes, ma'am. 20 MS. MCCREARY: I am concerned with 21 the map, and by looking at the map, it does 22 appear that the stable area will be directly 23 behind my property along with the pasture area 24 which runs onto their property. But there will 25 definitely be people coming and going behind -- a 13 1 very close proximity to my yard. 2 MS. BRADLEY: Well, our guidelines 3 state that the animals have to be at least two 4 hundred feet from your property line. 5 MS. MCCREARY: Okay. 6 MS. BRADLEY: At least two hundred 7 feet from your property line. 8 MS. MCCREARY: I, again -- and with, 9 you know, sometimes private functions going on at 10 other times, granted it's being said that there 11 are sometimes five groups of five, but there are 12 also groups of fifty to seventy-five? 13 I live where I live for the 14 seclusion, for the privacy. I never imagined 15 that this type of operation would happen beside 16 me. And if there are sleepovers, that is not 17 8:00 till 4:00. That is an all-night thing. I 18 can't expect them to come over and say do I have 19 your permission to and invite this group of 20 people over. I don't have that right as a 21 property owner, but it has always been 22 single-family out there. This is almost as if to 23 me, we're agreeing basically to a business being 24 out there, whether it be church owned or 25 privately individually owned. 14 1 So I'm very, very concerned. I 2 really do not want to see this next to my 3 property. And I have no animosity towards the 4 things that they're saying they are trying to do, 5 I appreciate that, and I myself think that youth 6 should be taught, learning life skills, but an 7 operation of what could be this magnitude, I 8 don't necessarily feel I want beside me. 9 MS. BRADLEY: Thank you. In your 10 request, you also -- your request that you sent 11 in, you said that you were asked -- you 12 specifically requested permit of a day camp use 13 for each summer of the property. 14 PASTOR LARKINS: Excuse me? 15 MS. BRADLEY: In your letter, you 16 specifically request a permit for day camp use 17 for each summer on the property located at 6450 18 Derby Road. And the way that I'm interpreting 19 that -- if I'm incorrect on that, let me know -- 20 my interpretation, you're asking us to grant 21 conditional use each summer for this specific day 22 camp. Is that correct? 23 PASTOR LARKINS: Again, we'll be 24 moving from 5600 Shank where we've been for six 25 years to take up our ministry operations in this 15 1 capacity at the Derby Road facility. So we will 2 not have another facility. So it will be an 3 ongoing program. 4 MS. BRADLEY: So, again, I'm going 5 to ask the question, you just tell me whether you 6 are or not. I think I understand. Your letter 7 is requesting our permission to have a day camp 8 there each summer. 9 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. 10 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. We cannot grant 11 that. We can only grant the conditional use for 12 one year at a time, just so that you're clear. 13 MS. FORTSON: This gentleman wants 14 to say something. 15 MR. COLE: Jerry Cole. 6455 Derby 16 Road. I live directly across the street. I was 17 going to ask the question, this was on the day 18 camp, are those seasonal or year-round? 19 PASTOR LARKINS: Day camps, of 20 course, they're seasonal, in that, you know, 21 unless we have winter programming. We do 22 environmental sciences there, so there are some, 23 you know, winter programming that we do. 24 We work with all the Dayton Public 25 Schools and all of the chartered schools, so they 16 1 do bring small groups in for environmental 2 sciences so they can help them with their 3 proficiency tests. 4 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. I have -- I'm 5 sorry, were you finished? 6 MR. COLE: Yes. Finished. 7 MS. MCCREARY: I understand that 8 there haven't been any complaints from what has 9 been said in the last year and a half, but I am 10 curious as to what the complaints were before 11 that time. 12 MS. BRADLEY: Do you remember, Vern? 13 MS. FORTSON: Offhand, no, not 14 really. But I could -- you know, if you're 15 interested, I could go back and get the records 16 for you, if you'd like to stop by. 17 It was, more or less, if my memory 18 serves me correctly, I think it was more noise at 19 that time, and they -- we had spoken to you about 20 it and that was taken care of. And then I think 21 they had a day camp prior to zoning, so we took 22 care of that. So it was just little things 23 people weren't sure of and they wanted to know. 24 But there's never been any complaints -- 25 MS. MCCREARY: Noise is a factor to 17 1 me. I'm sorry, but that's one of the enticements 2 of my property, is the fact that it is very 3 peaceful there, that, you know, it is -- it is 4 not a large congregation of people. That was why 5 we basically moved. 6 Now, we have lived there almost ten 7 years. Yeah. All this is going to be behind my 8 house, the adjacent property where the driveway 9 is is going to be as close to me as the road out 10 there is. How many people are going to be coming 11 through there daily or weekly? This -- you know, 12 to me, that's a big deal. This is going to be 13 very close to my home. It would be as if 14 somebody has put a road through, past my home 15 that I never expected would happen. 16 Yes, I don't have a problem with a 17 few people, but once granted permission, you 18 know, who can say. And yes, it is seasonal, 19 except when, certain times, it is this except 20 when. That's very iffy to me. 21 MS. FORTSON: If there's any 22 comfort, the only thing I can share with you, 23 we've granted the permit similar to what we're 24 doing -- of what we're hearing tonight about 25 three or four years ago for the very same 18 1 Shekinah Ranch on Shank Road, and as far as I've 2 shown, as far as I'm aware of, they've operated 3 within their permit. Noise has never been a 4 factor. Once we've established the guidelines of 5 what hours they can operate and stuff like that, 6 I've never had any more complaints. And trust 7 me, I would know. You know, the neighborhood is 8 very close knit. And so they wouldn't, you know, 9 give me a minute but to complain if something was 10 going down. 11 I don't know if that's any comfort 12 to you, but when it goes down to the number of 13 people in and out, over the last year and a half, 14 it's been very, very normal, very quiet. I mean, 15 there hasn't been an influx of people just 16 traveling in or out or cars moving in and out. 17 It's very low-keyed operation. 18 MS. MCCREARY: But this is something 19 that we don't have at all right now. And they 20 are enlarging their operation, basically that's 21 what they have said. So we're not talking about 22 the same situation as what was going on on Shank 23 Road. 24 MS. FORTSON: Truly, I think they 25 were operating on twenty some odd acres with 19 1 regards to surroundings. 2 PASTOR LARKINS: Actually, it was 3 eighteen acres. This gives us thirty-six acres. 4 MS. FORTSON: To space it out a 5 little bit more. 6 MS. MCCREARY: It's double the 7 amount. 8 PASTOR LARKINS: All of our -- as 9 you can see on the map, all of our programming is 10 actually further back onto the eighteen acres. 11 MS. FORTSON: Than you originally 12 were. 13 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. And then we 14 have programming back in our wooded area, which 15 is another fifteen acre lot or sixteen. 16 MS. FORTSON: At least five hundred 17 feet. And I'm guessing here, this is 18 guesstimation, five hundred feet from the front 19 of your house, more or less. 20 PASTOR LARKINS: Absolutely. This 21 gives us a lot more space. And the concern, I 22 understand, as far as in the back of her house. 23 Walters Builders has actually laid out the 24 property to specs for what is required for code. 25 And, you know, we've always 20 1 respected people's property lines and so forth, 2 and that's -- 3 MR. COLE: One of my concerns was if 4 there is someone going to be living on the 5 property in case the animals should get loose or 6 something like that. 7 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. We have 8 people living there. 9 MS. FORTSON: So the property will 10 always be occupied? 11 PASTOR LARKINS: Absolutely. 12 MS. MCCREARY: The property, also, 13 though, is what I would definitely refer to as 14 wetlands and I always have. And the lower 15 portion of this property, unless it is developed 16 in some way I'm unaware of, is unusable in many 17 ways. 18 And it would be good in teaching 19 youth, but, again, you know, Possum Creek is 20 there, and all that is available through 21 Montgomery Parks District. I am very concerned. 22 MS. BRADLEY: I have one other 23 concern, and that is about archery. 24 PASTOR LARKINS: Yeah. 25 MS. BRADLEY: I have a real concern 21 1 about archery. 2 PASTOR LARKINS: What is your 3 concern? 4 MS. BRADLEY: That it's dangerous. 5 PASTOR LARKINS: Archery is not 6 dangerous. 7 MS. BRADLEY: That's a difference of 8 opinion. 9 PASTOR LARKINS: Archery is an 10 Olympic sport. This is something that, you know, 11 we utilize to teach children focus and 12 responsibility. I mean, they're using beginners 13 practice archery equipment. They're not using 14 crossbows or compound bows or anything of that 15 nature. 16 And we do have a former Division of 17 Wildlife officer who teaches our archery course. 18 He was thirty years on the force. And he also 19 teaches a hunter's education -- hunter safety 20 there within our camps. His name is Ed Cramer. 21 He's got a long, long history of credibility with 22 the Division of Wildlife. We've been working 23 with the Division of Wildlife, Division of 24 Forestry, and Soil and Water Conservation for six 25 years. Soil and Water Conservation is working 22 1 with us, we want to maintain our wetlands area 2 because that's part of our environmental science 3 program, is to teach the children. And many 4 times we have children come out and they don't 5 know the difference between a groundhog and a 6 possum. So we really get to expand their quality 7 of life when we do this type of ministry 8 outreach. 9 MS. BRADLEY: Does anyone have any 10 other concerns about it other than me? 11 MS. FORTSON: Do you have buffer 12 zones? 13 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. Right now 14 we're actually establishing for the archery 15 range, it's just a matter of about four or five 16 targets, and there is a buffer zone that keeps 17 arrows from flying anywhere. That's out back. 18 Even if an arrow would fly, if we 19 didn't have a buffer zone, it would just be going 20 out into our wooded area and that's where all of 21 it is contained and shown there. 22 MR. DICKERSON: Those buffers are 23 something other than bales of hay? 24 PASTOR LARKINS: Dirt. It's about a 25 ten foot mound of dirt. 23 1 MS. BRADLEY: Any other questions, 2 comments? 3 MR. CEMNO: These rest room 4 facilities, it notes here, I see you have two? 5 PASTOR LARKINS: Well, there's two 6 listed there, but there is also going to be a 7 rest room facility in the stables. 8 MR. CEMNO: That would take care of 9 like sixty, seventy people? 10 PASTOR LARKINS: We've also 11 maintained two port-a-potties, and that's been 12 very successful with us. It's going to be 13 increased with having an operating rest room in 14 the stable area. 15 MR. DICKERSON: It seems like you're 16 almost going to double the amount of acreage that 17 you're going to upgrade on. 18 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes, sir. 19 MR. DICKERSON: How does that 20 compare to the increase in the size of your 21 activities? 22 PASTOR LARKINS: None at all. Like 23 I said, we maintain -- we established this policy 24 when we started the program because we wanted to 25 have hands-on with our children when they come. 24 1 We're not into volume. We're not trying to 2 establish anything like that. We want to 3 maintain that small family-like structure. 4 Again, we're doing this as a ministry. It's not 5 something where we're trying to, you know, create 6 a big resort park or something. 7 MR. DICKERSON: How does that relate 8 to the number of animals? 9 PASTOR LARKINS: Our animals, I 10 don't understand the question. 11 MR. DICKERSON: How many animals do 12 you have now? 13 PASTOR LARKINS: We have -- we have 14 our horses and then we have -- we have some deer. 15 We have some animals. We have a live aviary. 16 The biggest thing we have is the bird aviary. 17 MR. DICKERSON: How will that 18 increase in size, the number of horses, the 19 number of -- 20 PASTOR LARKINS: Virtually none. 21 Actually, the horses will actually diminish in 22 size when the horse market opens up because we 23 are wanting to move horses, but we're not going 24 to move them until horses are selling for more 25 money. So we really want to maintain around 25 1 thirty horses. 2 MR. DICKERSON: I'm just trying to 3 get an idea about the amount of area as a buffer 4 zone between your activities and the residence. 5 PASTOR LARKINS: Yeah. Again, our 6 pastures, we have plenty of pasture space. I 7 mean, really, up until now, we've operated on 8 eighteen acres. Now we have thirty-six. And so 9 now it's going to be a lot more feasible. 10 MR. DICKERSON: I just want to 11 address one of the concerns I heard expressed, 12 was insects infestation related to animals, 13 stables, manure, that sort of thing, and you 14 have -- I'm assuming you have experience in 15 handling this. 16 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. 17 MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Now, can you 18 explain for the residents how that's done so they 19 get some reassurance on that? 20 PASTOR LARKINS: Well, we operate -- 21 Lisa, do you want to explain the fly parasite we 22 use? 23 MS. WILLIAMS: The fly parasites 24 are -- what they are, they're just parasites that 25 eat the eggs that the flies produce when the warm 26 1 weather comes. And you just buy them and you put 2 them out and they eat the -- they eat the lavae 3 before the flies even develop. So that helps 4 keep the insects with flies down really, really 5 low. And then especially with the cold winter we 6 had so far, the bugs I'm sure will be really low. 7 As far as manure is concerned, the 8 manure is spread out in the pastures over our 9 fields so it's not like a big pile of manure 10 standing all the time. We will use the manure 11 for our program, and -- 12 PASTOR LARKINS: We also provide 13 manure to other organizations that have gardening 14 programs, like Edgemont Center. We'll be 15 providing manure for them. And, again, we're 16 maintaining thirty acres over on Shank. It's 17 leased land that we'll be using as our hay fields 18 and that manure will be spread over there for 19 fertilizer as well. 20 As far as mosquitos with that big of 21 wetland area, actually, the fact that we're going 22 to be there is going to be better manageable. 23 And we do treat our pond with a -- I wouldn't 24 call it a chemical, but it is a material that 25 helps control the mosquito population. 27 1 But there's a pond already back 2 there. And as we're working on that pond, 3 actually, it's going to be in better shape 4 because the pond has been there for years. Right 5 now it's draining and it's so mucky and it's bad 6 business back there. So we're actually fixing a 7 problem that was existing, that people may not 8 have known about. 9 MR. CEMNO: How do you control the 10 odor in that ninety-degree heat, summertime, day, 11 with the horse manure and so forth? 12 PASTOR LARKINS: Well, horses don't 13 produce a big odor. There's cows across the 14 street. Cows will have more odor than horses. 15 And that's just anybody that really knows 16 livestock. 17 We maintain a nutrition program that 18 was established with us with Findlay College when 19 we started. And we have a cleaning program. We 20 have twenty volunteers. We clean our stalls five 21 days a week. And that's more than most stables 22 clean them. But we want a high sanitary area, 23 that way we have less vet bills. 24 With us being a church, a lot of 25 what we do is on a donation basis to the 28 1 community, to the kids. We have to keep our cost 2 down. One of the ways we do that is keep our 3 horses healthy. 4 MS. MCCREARY: I -- again, going 5 back to the horses, I was a horse owner for six 6 years, and I am knowledgeable of horses. Again, 7 the stable area will be behind my house. I have 8 a swimming pool on my property. I will have 9 young children, as it seems, running around. 10 I'm not aware of any pond back 11 there. I've walked that land many times, and I 12 am aware it's a wetlands, but I have not seen any 13 evidence of a pond. 14 I do feel that the mosquito problem 15 will be a problem. I do feel that horses -- yes, 16 there are cows across the street now, and there 17 is already an odor problem, which has started in 18 the last two years, as this man has expanded. So 19 now we're saying let's add some more animals and 20 I'm sandwiched in between this? It makes my 21 property undesirable, in my opinion. 22 MR. MCCREARY: It wouldn't be so bad 23 if they were in the back. They're going to be 24 right up -- 25 MS. MCCREARY: Right in back of our 29 1 property. 2 MR. MCCREARY: Three hundred feet 3 from us. 4 MS. MCCREARY: And there's also a 5 lot of foliage and privacy, and I'm sure that is 6 going to have to be taken out. And basically for 7 myself, this operation will make my property 8 undesirable to me. And I've been there ten 9 years. 10 MS. FORTSON: How many acres do you 11 own? 12 MS. MCCREARY: One acre. But a lot 13 of what we're speaking about is going to be 14 directly behind the one acre. 15 MS. FORTSON: Question, how far back 16 are the stables going within relation to the 17 property? 18 PASTOR LARKINS: Well, I -- 19 MS. FORTSON: I know that's a tough 20 question. 21 PASTOR LARKINS: Again, Walters 22 Builders pushed it back beyond their property 23 line. So it's not going to be right up near the 24 fence. In fact, I'd say you can fit two semi 25 trucks between the fence line and where our 30 1 stables is actually pinned off. So I mean, it's 2 not going to be right up against their land. 3 MR. MCCREARY: Would you want thirty 4 horses that close to your windows at night? 5 MS. MCCREARY: Two semis are not 6 that wide. 7 PASTOR LARKINS: Your property line, 8 where your home is, you have -- 9 MR. MCCREARY: About seventy-five 10 feet, maybe one hundred from there. 11 PASTOR LARKINS: So you have your 12 house, and then you have a yard. 13 MS. MCCREARY: About one hundred 14 feet. 15 PASTOR LARKINS: Where the property 16 line is, we actually go back about two hundred 17 fifty feet. So I mean, that's what the code is 18 and that's what the builder laid it out as. 19 MS. BRADLEY: Okay. I think -- 20 anybody else has anything to say? 21 MR. DICKERSON: So this space -- 22 help me understand something. You said about two 23 semi lengths between the fence and the stable. 24 PASTOR LARKINS: The property line. 25 And don't quote me because I'm not -- you know, 31 1 I'm not good at yardage and stuff. We left that 2 into the hand of Walters Builders and he would 3 be -- our builder would have been here tonight, 4 but they had an illness in the family. 5 MR. DICKERSON: Does that meet the 6 two-hundred foot standard? 7 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes. 8 MS. MCCREARY: I also have a 9 swimming pool between -- 10 MR. MCCREARY: Fifty feet from our 11 property line. So within another two hundred 12 feet, you're going to have horses running around. 13 PASTOR LARKINS: Well, that's 14 actually kind of ambiguous. We have the stables 15 there, where they're going to be stabled inside, 16 but the pasture is even further out. 17 MR. MCCREARY: Then the smell is 18 going to be right there in that stable. 19 MS. MCCREARY: You can't deny that 20 horses do not have an odor, whether you disperse 21 the manure or not. And if you disperse the 22 manure on the property, it still releases an 23 odor, it still creates flies. I mean, I'm 24 familiar with the parasite that eats the lavae, 25 but I'd like to know even more about that. 32 1 And from my understanding, this 2 decision is to be made tonight. And we -- 3 MR. MCCREARY: You already moved the 4 stable to the back of the property and leave the 5 front open. 6 MS. MCCREARY: Because I feel that 7 we are being encroached upon. 8 MS. BRADLEY: Are you guys going to 9 respond to that or not? 10 (No verbal response.) 11 MS. BRADLEY: Any other comments? 12 I'm going to make a -- anybody want to make a 13 motion for me? 14 MR. DICKERSON: We've already 15 discussed the insurance, right, and that's in 16 place? 17 PASTOR LARKINS: Yes, sir. 18 MS. BRADLEY: I'll make a motion and 19 then you can amend the motion, then you guys can 20 hear the motion. The motion is to grant request 21 for conditional use of the property located at 22 6450 Derby Road upon the following: 23 Request is good for one year only. 24 Day-care -- sorry -- that it's only -- the camp 25 is operational from fifty-eight. Absolutely no 33 1 activities past 8:00 p.m. There's a buffer zone 2 available for the archery. Insurance is in 3 place. And that the -- all animals are kept at 4 least two hundred feet from the -- any 5 residential property line. 6 MS. FORTSON: Permit for day camp. 7 MS. BRADLEY: I'm sorry? 8 MS. FORTSON: Permit for day camp. 9 MS. BRADLEY: I thought I said day 10 camp. Okay. Has the motion been seconded? Any 11 questions? Popular vote. Mr. Dickerson? 12 MR. DICKERSON: Yes. 13 MS. BRADLEY: Mr. Cemno? 14 MR. CEMNO: Yes. 15 MS. BRADLEY: And I vote yes. 16 Motion carried. Motion for adjournment? So 17 moved. 18 (Thereupon, the proceedings were 19 concluded at 8:08 o'clock p.m.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 1 STATE OF OHIO ) 2 COUNTY OF MONTGOMERY ) SS: CERTIFICATE 3 I, Michelle A. Elam, a Notary Public 4 within and for the State of Ohio, duly 5 commissioned and qualified, 6 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the above-named 7 hearing was reduced to writing by me 8 stenographically in the presence of the parties 9 and thereafter reduced to typewriting. 10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a 11 relative or Attorney of either party nor in any 12 manner interested in the event of this action. 13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 14 my hand and seal of office at Dayton, Ohio, on 15 this _ _ _ day of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _, 2003. 16 17 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ MICHELLE A. ELAM 18 NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF OHIO My commission expires 5-02-2005 19 20 21 22 23 24 25