1 1 ZONING MEETING 2 JEFFERSON TOWNSHIP 3 * * * 4 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 5 * * * 6 DATE OF HEARING: Monday, August 18, 2003 Beginning at 7:40 o'clock p.m. 7 8 PLACE OF HEARING: 1 Business Parkway Drive Dayton, Ohio 45427 9 10 ZONING BOARD: Rob Seiter Jasper Cemino 11 Sam Dickerson 12 13 * * * 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 2 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 MR. SEITER: You want to act as the 3 secretary tonight? Take the role. 4 MR. DICKERSON: Rob Seiter? 5 MR. SEITER: Here. 6 MR. DICKERSON: Jasper? 7 MR. CEMINO: Here. 8 MR. DICKERSON: Sam Dickerson. That's 9 me. 10 MR. SEITER: Thank you. We have one case 11 tonight, and this is an appeal regarding an 12 application for a barn on structure -- on South 13 Union Road. I'll ask that anybody that -- ask 14 first for comments from the applicant or if the 15 applicant is not here, or the applicant's 16 representative and then anybody, neighbors, anybody 17 that has an interest in the case will also be asked 18 to comment and when you're called on, if you would 19 give your name and address for the recorder, we'd 20 appreciate it. Is the applicant here for this? 21 MR. BRUNS: Matthew Bruns, yes. 22 MR. SEITER: Okay. Would you state your 23 name and address for the -- 24 MR. BRUNS: Matt Bruns. Would that be my 25 address now or the address of the property? MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 3 1 MR. SEITER: Yeah, now. 2 MR. BRUNS: Okay. Matthew Bruns. 610 3 Cherry Hill Drive, that's two words, Apartment One 4 Miamisburg, Ohio 45342. 5 MR. SEITER: You care to address the 6 board regarding your case? 7 MR. BRUNS: This is my first time doing 8 this. I just was told to show up here. I was told 9 that my barn is not big enough -- or excuse me, too 10 big for my five acres of land, and then I have to 11 go through an appeals process -- or I have to show 12 up to this meeting. So I'm here, I guess. So 13 that's all I know. 14 MR. SEITER: Okay. Do you have any 15 questions now or you want to take comments from 16 the -- are you here for this case, sir, and ma'am? 17 Do you have comments to -- 18 THE WITNESS: We're a neighbor. We just 19 came to find out what's going on. Some information 20 on it. We got a letter of the -- 21 MR. SEITER: Do you have any comments for 22 the -- 23 THE WITNESS: Not at this point. 24 MR. SEITER: Okay. Sir, are you here for 25 this case? MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 4 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 MR. SEITER: The concerns of the board 3 are several. Perhaps you'll address these, 4 Mr. Bruns. One, is the -- in an agricultural 5 zoning district the use has to be agricultural and 6 yours doesn't appear to be 100 percent 7 agricultural. 8 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 9 MR. SEITER: Two, you don't comply with 10 the set backs on the side yard and rear yard, and 11 three, the use of your -- stated use on the 12 affidavit doesn't seem to coincide with the stated 13 use here for -- on the application. If you could 14 address those points, we'd appreciate it. 15 MR. BRUNS: Okay. In this -- 16 MR. SEITER: First, just the use. 17 MR. BRUNS: The use. Well, it'll have 18 many uses having to do with horses, and any other 19 livestock, whether it be sheep or cows. Anything 20 to do with livestock, I guess, in the future. I 21 can't foresee how many different types that I would 22 have there, but as of right now, we're dealing with 23 horses, and nursery stock, which is planting of 24 trees. Any kind of nursery stock really. I mean, 25 do you want a whole list or -- MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 5 1 MR. SEITER: You're planting nursery 2 stock there now? 3 MR. BRUNS: No. No, I haven't. I 4 haven't started yet, because I don't have any water 5 or anything like that. So, I mean, of course, that 6 has to be established first. 7 MR. SEITER: And as far as horses -- now, 8 on a five acre parcel, our question is how many 9 horse and sheep could you put on five acres that -- 10 MR. BRUNS: Well, that's what the barn is 11 for, for a horse riding arena if I -- need be, and 12 then I can't foresee to tell you how many horses 13 I'd have in the future, but obviously it can't be a 14 huge amount, but for boarding horses and -- you 15 need a rather large barn to do that, so that's my 16 plan is to have that. 17 MR. SEITER: I think our point is, the 18 barn is more -- way too big for a five acre parcel. 19 It's hard to conceive this kind of barn. If you 20 had 30, 40 acres, I could see this size of barn, 21 but not a five acre parcel. 22 MR. BRUNS: But how do you have an indoor 23 horse riding arena? 24 MR. SEITER: Well, I wasn't aware that -- 25 okay. Are you aware that -- who would the arena be MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 6 1 for? 2 MR. BRUNS: It's for many uses. In the 3 future I planned on having a petting zoo for -- I'm 4 a -- I've been a member of Hospice now and the Big 5 Brothers and Big Sisters of Dayton, and in the 6 future I plan on having a petting zoo to have 7 fundraisers, et cetera, out there. Just to raise 8 money like once a year or something like that, and 9 then as a retreat for my church basically, and not 10 like boarding any people, but maybe if people 11 wanted to camp out and spend time with the animals, 12 et cetera, stuff like that. 13 MR. SEITER: Once -- some of the things 14 that you have to address that -- if you want to use 15 this for an arena -- I assume have people coming in 16 to ride the horses? 17 MR. BRUNS: Oh, yeah. 18 MR. SEITER: And if -- then there's a 19 whole lot of issues here that you'd have to 20 address, and as far as parking, insurance, 21 lighting, noise, sanitation. 22 MR. BRUNS: Uh-huh. 23 MR. SEITER: And you haven't touched on 24 any of those in the -- 25 MR. BRUNS: Again, I mean, to me this is MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 7 1 the first time I've ever done this. 2 MR. SEITER: Okay. 3 MR. BRUNS: I haven't ever built a barn 4 of this size. I've never built anything. I mean, 5 I'm 35 years old, and I paid for the land up front. 6 I mean, I'm -- this is all new to me. 7 MR. SEITER: Okay. 8 MR. BRUNS: So, I mean, I'm planning for 9 the future, and I got to start somewhere. So as 10 far as it being a noisy -- I'm not going to have 11 large parties out there where there's going to be 12 music, you know, or something like that. I don't 13 know what you're really asking. 14 My objective is to grow old and enjoy my 15 life and that is -- I don't know if you're familiar 16 with Hospice or anything like that, but I've been a 17 member now for a while, and Big Brothers and Big 18 Sisters for a while. I just joined Hospice, but I 19 mean, to me, I'm -- I've made it this far in my life 20 and I've been blessed, so I want to give back, 21 basically. But I've done that through hard work, 22 and as far as what you're asking me, again, if my 23 application -- if I was short on the application 24 it's probably because I've been -- I was waiting for 25 three months basically to get ahold of somebody at MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 8 1 the zoning board. 2 I left several -- three messages. When I 3 finally got ahold of Vern -- again, this was three 4 months later. She told me that -- no, excuse me, 5 back up. That was -- that was the second call. I 6 finally got ahold of somebody. She said I will call 7 you back. I never got a call for another two 8 months, but by then I've been waiting and waiting, 9 and I finally said, well, I must have to go down 10 there, so I drove over here. There was a gentleman 11 that met me here. I can't recall his name. I 12 filled out the application there, and I got a call 13 the next day, I believe, and Vern said -- you know, 14 introduced herself, again, and said, okay, come in 15 Tuesday and pick up your permit. 16 So I came on Tuesday to pick up my permit, 17 and then she informed me that she wasn't going to 18 give me the permit, after I made another trip down 19 there. She didn't even know that I was coming, but 20 she had told me to show up Tuesday in the morning, 21 and so here I am. I filled out -- she had told me 22 the process that I had to take to talk to a 23 gentleman in downtown Dayton or something like that. 24 I finally got ahold of him and he said it's a 25 commercial structure, and that, you know, so here I MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 9 1 am. I'm filling -- I filled out all the 2 information, paid the $100, and that's my second bit 3 of information that you got, which you said 4 doesn't -- so I knew that I had to be more specific. 5 I didn't think it would -- I would have this much of 6 a problem. 7 MR. SEITER: Well, I think -- 8 MR. BRUNS: I'm sorry to interrupt. I 9 actually had one of the neighbors come by and he 10 took a look at my land, and he said, well, you 11 know, what are you doing here, and I explained to 12 him, and he said I don't know what the big deal is. 13 That's what he told me, so -- 14 MR. SEITER: Well, I think part of the 15 big deal is that -- and I think the three of us had 16 the -- maybe the same thought, is that it is a 17 commercial structure. 18 MR. BRUNS: Uh-huh. 19 MR. SEITER: And there's no provision for 20 that in agricultural use. 21 MR. BRUNS: Well, what -- I mean, why 22 not? If you have equipment and things to build a 23 barn like that, if you have that equipment, you're 24 going to need a place to store it to build the 25 structure, and then once you get it built, which is MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 10 1 either riding the horses or, you know, having this 2 area big enough to support the things you're 3 wanting to do, which is also -- 4 MR. SEITER: Because -- the two -- the 5 simplest way I know to explain it or that the two 6 principal permitted uses in agricultural zoning are 7 either residences or agriculture, and what you're 8 doing doesn't fall under agriculture. 9 MR. BRUNS: Okay. Residence -- say that 10 again. 11 MR. SEITER: Living quarters -- the two 12 principal permitted uses. 13 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 14 MR. SEITER: In all zoning areas they're 15 generally broken down into permissible permitted 16 uses, okay. That's what this area is for. 17 Residences, businesses, hospitals, churches, 18 playground -- 19 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 20 MR. SEITER: -- agriculture. 21 MR. BRUNS: Again, I told you it was for 22 a retreat. I think I put that on the page. 23 MR. SEITER: And the principal permitted 24 use in agriculture is agriculture, and single 25 family dwellings located not on -- not less than 20 MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 11 1 acres an area. Now, you're down to five acres. 2 Now, if you wanted to put a house on there, it 3 wouldn't be a problem, but putting -- basically 4 you're putting a commercial structure on there. 5 MR. BRUNS: I -- I mean, I -- again, do I 6 have to build a house first? I mean, that was my 7 goal one day, but I just wasn't for sure if I could 8 do it. Again, I'm only 35 and only have so much 9 money, but I -- 10 MR. SEITER: Well, if you build a house 11 first and then came in and applied for -- I 12 can't -- I can't imagine any way that you would get 13 permission to build a barn this big on a -- because 14 basically that area -- because I'm familiar with 15 this. This is -- it's agriculture. This is a 16 residential area. Five acre lot, it would be 17 hard -- it would be hard. And that's what I'm 18 saying, if you -- because I know people that grow 19 trees, I know people that grow crops. If you go 20 out well and do that, it would be hard to convince 21 anybody that you need a 13,000 square foot barn to 22 support your agricultural enterprise. 23 So all the other things that you want to 24 do don't fall under it. So if you want a variance 25 from the board -- MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 12 1 MR. BRUNS: I guess where I'm foggy is 2 that if you're going to have livestock and animals 3 there, I mean, don't you need something for them to 4 live in during the winter? I mean, do you just let 5 them roam outside or -- 6 MR. SEITER: No, if you wanted to go in 7 there and put the -- the lady right next to you has 8 got horses, doesn't she -- 9 MR. BRUNS: Carla, yeah. 10 MR. SEITER: -- in that lot? They got 11 horses in there, but you're talking about doing all 12 these other things on top of that use. That use is 13 fine. Agricultural use is -- I think it was on 14 the -- spelled out in more detail than I've ever 15 seen before. 16 MR. BRUNS: So, if I -- if I -- my main 17 concern is the horses. That was just a dream of 18 mine is to help and give back what I've -- you 19 know, I've -- I don't know. I just -- I just 20 donate my time and that was just a thought is that 21 I could try to raise money for a good cause. That 22 was it. 23 MR. SEITER: Well, we -- 24 MR. BRUNS: I mean, my main concern is 25 boarding horses and nursery stock, that's my main MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 13 1 concern. I mean, if I can't build my barn because 2 I planned on having cows and raising some money, I 3 mean, why would I want to do that if I can't build 4 my barn? 5 MR. SEITER: No, it's not a question 6 about building a barn, because in a true 7 agricultural use, I don't think anybody would tell 8 you that you can't build a barn, but you've listed 9 all these other uses. Now, if you wanted to just 10 build a barn, then I think you have -- for your 11 agriculture, then you got to go back and you got to 12 comply with these -- and this is something we're 13 not certain about, but your accessory uses, it says 14 here that you need 50 feet from an adjacent 15 property line. 16 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 17 MR. SEITER: Now, I don't know that your 18 barn comes under that -- 19 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 20 MR. SEITER: -- because this is talking 21 about -- let me see if it's -- I can find it in the 22 back. 23 MR. BRUNS: I mean, if it needs to be 24 50 feet, I mean, that wouldn't be an issue. Tell 25 me -- I can make it 50 feet. I wish I had a pen. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 14 1 I was trying to write this stuff down as you 2 mentioned. 3 MR. SEITER: Well, the only -- this 4 doesn't deal -- and like I say, it seems to me that 5 it's probably in here and we haven't found it. 6 That the only thing I'm -- I'm finding here is no 7 structure shall exceed 40 feet, and I think you're 8 okay there. Didn't you say 20 feet on this, the 9 height? 10 MR. BRUNS: I wasn't positive. Because, 11 I mean, I didn't want to order a -- a plan. I mean 12 it costs me to order a plan for the barn. I know 13 that it's at least 18, I think. 17 or 18 or 14 something like that, but I just put 20 feet. 15 MR. SEITER: But what we have to find out 16 is if there's a provision in here, and there may 17 not be in agriculture, because we've come across it 18 before in residential where you're only allowed to 19 cover so much of the rear yard. A certain 20 percentage, okay. And you've got these side yard 21 requirements where -- let me see. See, now, this 22 gives rear yard 50 feet, side yard 30 feet each 23 side. I don't know if that's for your barn or not. 24 MR. BRUNS: I believe there -- I believe 25 it's 30 feet on each side. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 15 1 MR. CEMINO: I got a couple of questions. 2 MR. BRUNS: Go ahead, I'm listening. 3 MR. SEITER: So are you a landscaper, is 4 that your business? 5 MR. BRUNS: Yes. I have a landscape -- 6 lawn and landscape service, and -- yes. 7 MR. SEITER: So, Jasper, you got a couple 8 questions? 9 MR. CEMINO: I'd just like for him to 10 define -- what are you talking about nursery stock. 11 You going to raise it and sell it? Are you going 12 to -- is that what you plan to do? 13 MR. BRUNS: Yes. 14 MR. SEITER: Raise it and sell it. 15 MR. BRUNS: I wouldn't sell it on the 16 property, but I have other places that I would send 17 it to, plus I would use it for, you know, for 18 planting, and -- 19 MR. SEITER: Do you sell it somewhere 20 else? 21 MR. BRUNS: Exactly. 22 MR. SEITER: And also -- 23 MR. BRUNS: I mean, are you allowed to 24 sell it there? 25 MR. SEITER: Yeah. As a farm market. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 16 1 MR. BRUNS: As a what? 2 MR. SEITER: As a farm market, yes, you 3 would be able to. 4 MR. CEMINO: Yeah. 5 MR. BRUNS: What is that? What is that 6 term farm market? 7 MR. SEITER: Well, farm market. It's 8 spelled out here. It's -- you can have a stand and 9 sell produce if you own -- 10 MR. BRUNS: Okay. Got you. 11 MR. SEITER: Owned or operated by the 12 market operator in a normal crop year, but 13 50 percent or more of the gross income from the 14 market has to be derived from produce that you 15 raise. In other words, you couldn't have a farm 16 market and a motorcycle shop, or a farm market and 17 maybe a petting zoo, a commercial enterprise in the 18 same -- 19 MR. BRUNS: Oh, petting zoo is not -- 20 when I said petting zoo, that's for the patients 21 and, you know, for people to enjoy. It's not to 22 make any money. It's to raise money, if I ever did 23 that. 24 MR. SEITER: Just to bring people out? 25 MR. BRUNS: But as I said, I don't want MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 17 1 that to prohibit me from building my structure. 2 Because my -- you know, one of my loves is horses, 3 so -- 4 MR. SEITER: Well, you may want to 5 rethink your application just the way that it's 6 presented. 7 MR. BRUNS: Did you -- I hate to ask you 8 guys this. Do you have a pen, because I need to 9 write this down, because I'm going to -- I know 10 you're telling me key things here. If you don't, I 11 can run out to my bike. I got one. Thank you. 12 MR. SEITER: If you were to present this 13 as a market, 50 -- at least 50 percent of the 14 income that you're deriving from that market -- 15 MR. BRUNS: I understand that. 16 MR. SEITER: -- has to come from stuff 17 you raised. 18 MR. BRUNS: I understand that. 19 MR. SEITER: Okay. 20 MR. BRUNS: But you're saying I need to 21 reapplicate -- 22 MR. SEITER: If you presented this as a 23 farm market, the maximum square footage of the 24 structure's 200 feet. 200 -- that's 10 by 20. See 25 the little road side stands. See what I'm saying? MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 18 1 There's one stand per lot. 2 MR. BRUNS: But I mean, I guess I'm 3 confused. I mean, how do you -- I mean, where am I 4 supposed to put animals in the winter? That's 5 what -- 6 MR. SEITER: Well, that's why I'm 7 thinking you might want to rethink this, because -- 8 where's your -- I don't want to -- what's the 9 dimensions on this? I'm sorry 60 by 150. 10 MR. CEMINO: Yeah. 11 MR. BRUNS: Is it possible to live in a 12 barn? 13 MR. SEITER: No. 14 MR. BRUNS: I mean -- okay. 15 MR. SEITER: You could have -- well, 16 living quarters used as a separate dwelling. 17 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 18 MR. SEITER: That's an accessary use, 19 okay. 20 MR. DICKERSON: Wait a minute. Here's an 21 example of maybe an approach to reapply. Under 22 conditional use, there's riding academies. 23 Provided at such buildings or stables, should be a 24 distance of 200 feet from any lot in a residential 25 district. So -- MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 19 1 MR. SEITER: Where's that, Sam? 2 MR. BRUNS: Say that last part again. 3 MR. DICKERSON: Conditional use F. 4 MR. BRUNS: You said there has to be a 5 200 feet -- 6 MR. DICKERSON: 200 feet from any lot in 7 a residential district, so you're not residential, 8 you're agricultural. So I'm not really -- but 9 there's a provision for riding academies. 10 MR. BRUNS: But it has to be 200 feet -- 11 on -- oh, I see. So it's not residential, it's not 12 agricultural, so it is 200 feet from a residential. 13 I understand what you just said. 14 MR. DICKERSON: But you still have the 15 requirement of the set backs from the adjacent 16 property lines. 17 MR. BRUNS: So I think -- the -- it's 18 right at -- it's one foot shy, I believe, on the -- 19 if it's 150 foot across. It would be one foot 20 shy -- if it's 209 feet, it would be one foot shy; 21 is that right? 60 feet. So basically it's a half 22 a foot or three quarters of a foot shy. Does that 23 make sense what I'm saying? If the barn's 150 24 foot, the barn could be positioned so it would be a 25 half foot shy of 60 foot. So that's 30 foot either MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 20 1 way from the property line. 2 MR. DICKERSON: Probably -- what you 3 should do is get a copy of the -- 4 MR. BRUNS: I got -- 5 MR. DICKERSON: -- zoning requirements 6 for the type of -- the way you want to apply. 7 MR. BRUNS: I had that application. I 8 thought it said that. 9 MR. DICKERSON: And then word your 10 application so that it fits the requirements and 11 sort of -- I'm trying to help you out. 12 MR. BRUNS: Sure. Okay. Yeah, I just -- 13 I mean, is there -- did they -- do they supply you 14 with that or do you have to go look up the -- 15 MR. DICKERSON: You can -- yeah, you can 16 have a copy. You can just see Vern and tell her 17 you need a copy. 18 MR. BRUNS: I got the application and 19 then they never gave me any paperwork -- 20 MR. DICKERSON: The application should 21 cite the paragraphs and sections that you want 22 to -- you're asking for the use on -- 23 MR. BRUNS: Uh-huh. Okay. So -- okay. 24 I guess that I'll remake my map then, I guess. 25 MR. SEITER: Now -- MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 21 1 MR. DICKERSON: One other concern though, 2 you've shown on your handdrawn layout of the lot a 3 pond. 4 MR. BRUNS: Uh-huh. 5 MR. DICKERSON: Is this pond going to be 6 a problem with insects and that sort of thing? 7 MR. BRUNS: No. 8 MR. DICKERSON: If you don't have flowing 9 water, if it's standing water -- 10 MR. BRUNS: Yes. I'll have a large 11 waterfall, I mean with a pump. So it'll pump -- 12 filtrate the water. 13 MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Because I mean 14 there are -- 15 MR. BRUNS: And that pond -- 16 MR. DICKERSON: Even though it's 17 agricultural, there are residents nearby. I'm 18 thinking of West Nile. 19 MR. BRUNS: Yeah. That doesn't happen -- 20 I'm experienced in that the pond would be used for 21 the horses to swim and for irrigation, so it's just 22 for exercise and irrigation. 23 MR. SEITER: We're not trying to tell you 24 what to do, but it's our understanding, or at least 25 it's my understanding that no one can deny you MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 22 1 building a barn in an agricultural area. 2 MR. BRUNS: Uh-huh. 3 MR. SEITER: That's my understanding of 4 it, okay. 5 MR. BRUNS: But if you need electricity. 6 MR. SEITER: Now, then my question is 7 since there's no house there, I got a couple 8 questions about this. Were you denied because 9 you're putting -- the barn's considered an 10 accessory use, okay. An accessory to the house. 11 Like a garage would be the accessory to the house. 12 MR. BRUNS: Oh, okay, you're telling me 13 right now as it is I have no houses on there, so 14 it's considered an accessory use? 15 MR. SEITER: The barn would be, and I'm 16 not sure. So what we're kind of thinking here is 17 to table this for a month, and I'm sorry to delay 18 you further, but I want to find out in writing why 19 this was turned down. Because we don't want to do 20 something that we're going to have to backtrack and 21 correct. 22 MR. BRUNS: She -- okay. 23 MR. SEITER: And what -- 24 MR. BRUNS: She told me quote, that day, 25 when she said come in pick up your permit that MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 23 1 Tuesday, and then I showed up she said you led me 2 to believe you'd been doing this for years, and I 3 said I didn't lead you to believe that. I told you 4 what my goals were, and it was like she thought 5 that I was lying to her. 6 MR. SEITER: Yeah. I don't know anything 7 about that. 8 MR. BRUNS: I don't know if she used that 9 wording, but I was -- I was -- it really blew my 10 mind that number one, it took me that long to get 11 ahold of anybody. 12 MR. SEITER: In an agricultural use, I 13 don't think that -- for strictly agricultural use, 14 I don't think anybody can deny you building a barn. 15 I really mean that. I don't think anybody can tell 16 you you can't do this unless they want to stop you, 17 either Jefferson Township or the county, and I'm 18 not sure the county's -- how much they've got to 19 deal with it from building it first before a house 20 is there. I don't know if that's a problem or not, 21 or because you've listed all these other incidental 22 uses that have nothing to do with agricultural, you 23 see what I'm saying? 24 MR. BRUNS: I was told that. I was told 25 that, but I wanted to make sure. I was told I MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 24 1 didn't have to have a permit to build a barn on an 2 agricultural property. 3 MR. SEITER: Who told you that? 4 MR. BRUNS: He was adamant about it. He 5 lives in Miami Township. 6 MR. SEITER: Somebody who lives down 7 there. 8 MR. BRUNS: He says state law says you 9 don't have to have a barn to build -- you don't 10 have to have a permit to build a barn, and I just 11 didn't believe it. 12 MR. SEITER: That may be right. That may 13 be right in an agricultural use. So what I want to 14 find out is why was this turned down? Was it the 15 size of the barn? Is it the fact that -- what 16 standards are they using for side yard and rear 17 yard requirements, because there's residential 18 standards. There's agricultural standards. See 19 what I'm saying? 20 MR. BRUNS: So when you said 200 feet 21 from a residence, is this residential or 22 agricultural? 23 MR. SEITER: Well, actually this is zoned 24 agricultural, so I don't know -- 25 MR. BRUNS: So I'm clear on the 200 feet, MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 25 1 but then to go back to the 50 feet from the back, I 2 think my map -- see, I gave every copy I had to you 3 guys. 4 MR. SEITER: Well, we've got a lot of 5 questions, and if -- I think if we had a handle on 6 why it was turned down, we'd know where to go. 7 And -- but I can tell you -- 8 MR. BRUNS: She mentioned -- she said 9 you're going to have to talk to this guy, and then 10 I stayed here that day and I called the guy from 11 here, and he said this is considered a commercial 12 structure, and so you have to have a -- you have to 13 state your reasons why or something like that. 14 That's why -- I guess -- 15 MR. SEITER: Okay. Why -- 16 MR. BRUNS: And then it went back to her. 17 Maybe it went back to her and she said okay, here's 18 what you do. You got to fill -- pay the $100, make 19 out this application, and then come to a hearing in 20 a month. 21 MR. SEITER: Now, see that may be a state 22 law, I don't know. I'm not familiar with it. 23 Maybe the state law says if you don't have a house 24 there and you're building a barn over X number of 25 square foot, it -- we consider it commercial and MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 26 1 this is what you got to go through. Because 2 there's a lot of hoops you got to go through with a 3 permit. 4 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 5 MR. SEITER: Maybe that's it. I don't 6 know. And what the other -- 7 MR. BRUNS: I think she did say if nobody 8 objects then -- 9 MR. SEITER: But see you're showing this 10 as -- wait a minute. Where is it -- I thought you 11 had the height on here? Did I make that up? Okay. 12 Highest point above established grade you're 13 showing is 20 feet, but you're showing two stories, 14 okay, and then -- 15 MR. BRUNS: That's half the structure is 16 going to be -- 17 MR. SEITER: -- your gross floor area. 18 So if you really got -- if you really got two 19 stories, what are you doing with the second story? 20 And then your gross floor area that might be what 21 kicked you into commercial without having a big 22 enough piece -- I don't know. 23 MR. BRUNS: Okay. What did you say after 24 the second floor? The second floor is for storage 25 to keep it off the ground. Okay. Then what did MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 27 1 you say after? 2 MR. SEITER: Then you're showing 3 13,000 square feet that this barn is. 9,000 on the 4 first floor, 4,000 on the second. Maybe that 5 kicked it into commercial. I don't know. 6 Q. Yes, ma'am? 7 MRS. BOGGS: I wanted to ask him does he 8 know what the bulldozer's doing from sunup to 9 sunset? I just haven't been back there, but 10 there's an awful lot of bulldozing going on and 11 I've been real curious as to -- 12 MR. BRUNS: There's been three days. 13 MR. SEITER: Would you state your name 14 and address for the record, ma'am? 15 THE WITNESS: My name is Paula Boggs, my 16 address is 7151 Manning Road. 17 MR. SEITER: Okay. Thank you. Got you. 18 MRS. BOGGS: And that bulldozer's been 19 going more than two days. It's been going for 20 weeks. 21 MR. BRUNS: Actually not at night. It's 22 been two nights that it was on, and the first time 23 was that the bulldozer had to be turned back in and 24 the rain and everything. It had put us behind, so 25 basically it was -- MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 28 1 MRS. BOGGS: I just wonder what it does 2 and why. 3 MR. BRUNS: That was the pond. That was 4 the pond. And then there was also earth being 5 brought up to the front which I -- have you 6 actually -- have you seen -- do you know where it's 7 at? 8 MRS. BOGGS: I know exactly where it's 9 at. 10 MR. BRUNS: Okay. Did you see all the 11 earth in the front? 12 MRS. BOGGS: Uh-huh. 13 MR. BRUNS: That's -- that's just 14 building up the front to make it more usable to 15 plant -- 16 MRS. BOGGS: And were you aware there are 17 two riding stables within sight of your property? 18 MR. BRUNS: I seen a huge barn -- 19 MRS. BOGGS: They're already two. 20 MR. BRUNS: I seen a huge barn I thought 21 that Zinks owned, and then I saw one right next to 22 me, which is Carla, and then there's the horse 23 riders that come by all the time. Are they both -- 24 is the next one north of Carla's. 25 MRS. BOGGS: It's Green Stone. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 29 1 MR. BRUNS: Is that down the hill 2 further? 3 MRS. BOGGS: Uh-huh. 4 MR. BRUNS: Okay. Yeah, I -- 5 MRS. BOGGS: Are you going to have riding 6 stables where you charge people to come -- 7 MR. BRUNS: I mean, I -- 8 MRS. BOGGS: -- and ride? 9 MR. BRUNS: I don't know. I don't know. 10 In the future. I don't know, I may. I just like 11 horses and my friend and I are into it now, and I 12 happen to come across the land, and that's where -- 13 you know, that's where I'm at now, so -- 14 MRS. BOGGS: You've talked about a 15 campground. My husband and I camped out at Hueston 16 Woods, and there was another campground way on the 17 other side. Way farther than you are to us. I 18 would not like to see a campground or people 19 camping. 20 MR. BRUNS: It's not going to be a 21 campground. It's just basically just to -- you 22 know, I said those things because I wanted to raise 23 money for an organization, and as I said, if it's 24 going to cost me the opportunity for me to build, 25 you know, to be with my horses and -- I mean, I MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 30 1 don't want that to happen, so -- 2 MRS. BOGGS: When you say raise money, 3 how are you planning to use this land to raise 4 money? 5 MR. BRUNS: Well, you have -- if you have 6 a roast or something and you charge -- you say this 7 is your donation. Sorry, I didn't turn that off. 8 I mean, I'm sure you've probably been to 9 fundraisers before where, you know, you -- people 10 supply food and drink and, you know, they ask for a 11 donation. You know, it's not required, but, you 12 know, you can give something back and that's all 13 I'm trying to do is -- you know, and that was one 14 of my dreams. 15 I mean, I'm a spiritual person, and that's 16 the way I look at things. It's not really going to 17 help me a whole lot, but just psychologically, I 18 mean, again, I don't want it to hinder me, and if 19 you -- this is the first time I ever met you. I 20 mean, if it bothers you that you don't want people 21 sleeping out under -- you know, over, and, you know, 22 kids coming there and them enjoying the things of 23 nature, that is my goal. When I first drove up 24 there, you know, and I sat on top of that hill and I 25 looked there and I looked around, you're down lower MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 31 1 on down the hill. I mean, I was told that's the 2 second highest elevated spot in Montgomery County. 3 And when I sat up there in the winter and I seen all 4 these leaves off the trees, and I looked around it 5 was very spiritual for me. 6 So, you know, I said way back when I was a 7 young adult before I had anything, and I basically 8 built what I've had by myself. I said if I ever get 9 enough money to help other people, I will do that. 10 And that's -- that's the only reason I said that. 11 MR. SEITER: Well, I think -- not to -- 12 I'm sorry to interrupt you. I think some of those 13 issues are down the road, but so that you'll 14 understand the many things that can or cannot be 15 approved in agricultural use. Here's a brief list. 16 Airport, and landing strips. These are all 17 conditional uses. And the board, we've heard a lot 18 of them. Cemeteries, kennels, and animal 19 hospitals, riding -- 20 MR. BRUNS: Hold on. Hold on. 21 MR. SEITER: Riding academies. 22 MR. BRUNS: Animal hospital, okay. 23 MR. SEITER: Riding -- these are all 24 conditional uses, and a conditional use means it's 25 not the principal permitted use, but if somebody MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 32 1 wants to do it, they come in and the board attaches 2 such conditions as they think will keep the use 3 from being a detriment to the neighborhood. 4 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 5 MR. SEITER: There's golf courses. That 6 one goes on and on and on. Gun clubs, miniature 7 golf, meeting halls, radio and TV towers, 8 extraction of sand and minerals, campgrounds 9 provided sanitary facilities have been approved. 10 Rodeos -- 11 MR. BRUNS: Now, back up. Campground, 12 does that just mean -- I mean, is there a problem 13 with people, like, you know, kids -- I mean, this 14 campground. Do you have to have like separate -- 15 you know -- 16 MR. SEITER: That's an issue for another 17 day. 18 MR. BRUNS: Okay. I'm confused, I'm 19 not -- 20 MR. SEITER: If you actually want to do a 21 campground, the campground's involved. You need 22 permits from the county health department -- 23 MR. BRUNS: I don't want to make a 24 campground. 25 MR. SEITER: -- children services. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 33 1 MR. BRUNS: I don't want to make a 2 campground. 3 MR. SEITER: Or if you just want your 4 friends and buddies to come over and spend the 5 night, nobody's going to tell you to do that. 6 MR. CEMINO: What would you say -- what 7 about the retreat? 8 MR. BRUNS: That's just -- I call a 9 retreat somewhere where kids come and they pet 10 animals. 11 MR. CEMINO: My version of retreat is 12 where they stay over a couple days. People stay 13 for a couple days. That's what a retreat is. That 14 had me confused here. 15 MR. BRUNS: You know, when I said Hospice 16 and Big Brothers and Big Sisters, I mean, that -- 17 again, the goal is to help them, and that's just by 18 raising money. Once a year, like having a -- you 19 know, having a get-together for once a year to help 20 people make gift donations and, you know, raise 21 money. That's basically it. I called it a 22 retreat. I mean -- 23 MR. CEMINO: Okay. 24 MR. BRUNS: -- for people to come in. 25 MR. CEMINO: That's your version of a MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 34 1 retreat? 2 MR. BRUNS: Yeah. 3 MR. CEMINO: That's what I -- 4 MR. BRUNS: If I have horses, people love 5 horses. They love to see them, rub and -- run and 6 do tricks or whatever, you know. That's all that's 7 about, you know. 8 MR. SEITER: Are you familiar with the 9 Learning Tree? It's right up the street from you. 10 It's on the corner of South Union -- 11 MR. BRUNS: South Union. 12 MR. SEITER: -- and Dayton Farmersville. 13 They've been there for years. Just south of Dayton 14 Farmersville. You ought to give them a call and 15 see what they did, because they do a lot of things 16 you're talking about. Just look at their operation 17 and how much land they have and look at what you're 18 going to do on five acres. It's called the 19 Learning Tree, Incorporated. 20 MR. BRUNS: Yeah, but this is not to 21 raise money for myself. 22 MR. SEITER: Just an eye-opener. 23 MR. BRUNS: It's not to raise money for 24 myself. 25 MR. SEITER: They're nonprofit. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 35 1 MR. BRUNS: Oh, they are? 2 MR. SEITER: Yeah. I'm going to make a 3 motion that we table this until the third Monday in 4 September, pending resolution of the exact reasons 5 it was turned down. 6 MR. DICKERSON: Seconded. 7 MR. SEITER: Moved and seconded to table 8 this to the third Monday in September. 9 Mr. Dickerson? 10 MR. DICKERSON: Here. 11 MR. SEITER: Jasper? 12 MR. CEMINO: Yes, here. 13 MR. SEITER: And Mr. Seiter, yes. Okay. 14 So we'll rehear this, and what we're going to ask 15 the zoning director for is -- and if the county 16 assists on this, it'll be great. We need answers 17 as to is there a maximum allowed square footage for 18 this barn that we're unaware of? Are they upset 19 because the accessory use going in first? Are 20 there side yard requirements that we're not aware 21 of? Why is this considered a commercial structure? 22 And just a suggestion to you, one reason we do 23 this, we table it this way, is you don't -- you're 24 not saddled with any other expenses. You don't 25 have any other expenses, permit fees owed to the MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 36 1 Township. 2 MR. BRUNS: No. 3 MR. SEITER: No. 4 MR. BRUNS: I don't think so. 5 MR. SEITER: That's what I'm saying, you 6 don't when we move it ahead a month -- 7 MR. BRUNS: Got you. 8 MR. SEITER: -- like this. So you don't 9 have any other permits. We'll be here the third 10 Monday of September at 7:30 to rehear the case. 11 MR. BRUNS: Do you have a date on that? 12 MR. SEITER: I don't know the date on 13 that, but it's the third Monday. 14 MR. BRUNS: I think I -- I wanted to 15 answer -- she had asked that question. Were you -- 16 did you think that this was going to be a constant 17 thing that, you know, dozing at night? 18 MRS. BOGGS: It wasn't just the dozing at 19 night. There was a lot of dozing, and I'm 20 concerned about the standing water with the West 21 Nile too, that thought's crossed my mind. 22 MR. SEITER: Well, the thing is though -- 23 that's -- you know, you can't stop this gentleman 24 from putting a pond there. 25 MRS. BOGGS: No. No. MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 37 1 MR. BRUNS: It's -- 2 MRS. BOGGS: We just came to see what all 3 the dozing was about, and there was a really big 4 pile of dirt. 5 MR. BRUNS: Oh, yeah, that's -- when we 6 dug that it was in the worst spot that you could 7 dig a pond, but we have sifted through all of the 8 stone that was in there, and made a clay barrier 9 deep enough to let, you know -- you build a pond 10 like you're supposed to build, and we're not all 11 the way done, and I've had to pump that pond out. 12 I'm wondering, did you hear a small engine maybe, 13 because there was a few times I let the pump run 14 all night. 15 MRS. BOGGS: No. I mean -- 16 MR. BRUNS: I'm just confused as far as 17 the dozer being run several nights, because I know 18 of two nights myself. Unless my brother slipped 19 out there. 20 MRS. BOGGS: We just didn't know you were 21 building a pond. That answers the question. 22 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 23 MRS. BOGGS: We were just wondering what 24 all was going on. 25 MR. BRUNS: I'd appreciate it if -- well, MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 38 1 did you just drive back there and look? 2 MRS. BOGGS: Oh, no. No. 3 MR. BRUNS: On your way home just go back 4 and see. Do you want to stop? I'm on my way home. 5 I live right near there. 6 MR. SEITER: Sir, I have one question or 7 suggestion, are you -- in your mind, do you feel 8 that you're -- are you sure of what we're doing 9 here with this zoning? The difference between -- 10 MR. BRUNS: I understand a lot more. 11 MR. SEITER: -- the principal permitted 12 use and conditional uses? 13 MR. BRUNS: 50 percent of -- 14 MR. SEITER: Well, conditional -- all 15 those other uses are possible conditional uses for 16 any property in agricultural zoning. All the other 17 things that -- airport, cemetery, towers -- 18 MR. BRUNS: You don't -- can't do those. 19 MR. SEITER: No. They're called 20 conditional uses. Anybody that owns agricultural 21 ground can come in and ask us to let them do that. 22 MR. BRUNS: Oh, okay. 23 MR. SEITER: What you want is a variance 24 from all the rules because yours isn't a principal 25 permitted use or a conditional use, and what my MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 39 1 suggestion before the next meeting is, if this is 2 truly agricultural, then you should present it that 3 way. You see what I'm saying? Because 4 agricultural is a principal permitted use, and if 5 your barn is meant to be used for agricultural, you 6 should present it that way and not as a retreat and 7 a petting zoo, which may or may never happen. You 8 see what I'm saying? 9 MR. BRUNS: Okay. 10 MR. SEITER: Can we get a motion to 11 adjourn? 12 MR. CEMINO: I'll motion to adjourn. 13 MR. SEITER: Meeting adjourned. 14 (Thereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 15 8:22 o'clock p.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259 40 1 STATE OF OHIO ) 2 COUNTY OF MONTGOMERY ) SS: CERTIFICATE 3 I, Stephanie D. Washington, a Notary 4 Public within and for the State of Ohio, duly 5 commissioned and qualified, 6 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the above-named 7 zoning meeting was reduced to writing by me 8 stenographically and thereafter reduced to 9 typewriting. 10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative 11 or Attorney of either party nor in any manner 12 interested in the event of this action. 13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 14 hand and seal of office at Dayton, Ohio, on this 15 day of , 2003. 16 17 18 19 20 STEPHANIE D. WASHINGTON, CSR NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF OHIO 21 My commission expires 08-01-2005 22 23 24 25 MIKE MOBLEY REPORTING 937-222-2259